0079 | July 8, 2019
(r)omance: Are you difficult?
What makes someone “difficult” in romantic relationships? Putting themselves under the microscope, the hosts explore their own shortcomings and wonder how difficult they are to love.
| C.T. WEBB: 00:19 | [music] Good afternoon. Good morning. Or good evening. And welcome to The American Age Podcast. This is C. Travis Webb, editor of The American Age. And I’m speaking to you from southern California. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 00:28 | Hello. I am Steven G. Fullwood. And I am the co-founder of the Nomadic Archivist project. And I’m coming to you from Harlem. And it is hot. |
| S. RODNEY: 00:37 | I’m Seph Rodney. I’m a senior editor at the Hyperallergic blog. And the author of the book, The Personalization of the Museum Visit. And I am speaking to you from the south Bronx. |
| C.T. WEBB: 00:51 | This is to remind our listeners that we practice a form of what we like to call intellectual intimacy. Which is giving each other the space and time to figure out things out loud and together. And we are picking up on our conversation from last week on romance with a lower-case R. And I closed that episode, kind of just wandered a bit around what the idea of romance was. And then closed in on a question that I sort of tasked my two co-hosts with. And I would like to answer as well. Which is that if they’re difficult to be in relationships with. So, gentlemen. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 01:29 | Take it away. Rock, scissors, paper. |
| S. RODNEY: 01:33 | You want to go first, Steven? No pressure. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 01:36 | Sure. I’m fine. I have a pretty– I think I have some thoughts about it that might be useful. So do I think I’m a difficult romantic partner to be with? I think I’m pretty sweet. I think I’m kind. I think I do a lot of work to take care of myself and other people in general. I think that the bloated sort of terrible idea of what romance has been portrayed as in films primarily and on television– not most recently. But how I grew up in the 80s and 90s. People had to sort of tick off boxes about what romance looked like. Walking along the beach. Flowers. I’m anti all of that. Because it’s all funny to me. I feel like it’s just a script. Right? But what I do think is romantic are things like talking about quantum mechanics and third dimensions. And being with someone who– |
| C.T. WEBB: 02:37 | I assume you mean fourth or fifth dimensions. Right? Third dimensions are just– it’s just the world. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 02:41 | Oh. Yeah. No. No. No. I think that’s us right now. Yeah. No. Thank you. Thank you very much. |
| S. RODNEY: 02:44 | We’re right here. I was thinking it, Travis. Thank you. |
| C.T. WEBB: 02:49 | Which to be clear makes me difficult to be with. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 02:53 | Because I’m just here. Nowhere else. But what I like– and it has nothing to say what I want. But what I enjoy are people who have a vulnerability. And I have a vulnerability that I think I can offer someone. And I don’t know how much that goes for on the market in terms of romance. I hear people say they want sensitive men. But I don’t think so. I think people might want something– oh. You know what? I’m doing the very thing that I don’t like for people to do. Not answering the question. |
| C.T. WEBB: 03:23 | Not answering the question? |
| S. FULLWOOD: 03:24 | Right. Absolutely. I don’t think I’m difficult to be with. I’m a busy person. But I make time for things I want. I’ll stop there. |
| S. RODNEY: 03:35 | Okay. I think I used to be. I think that there was a point in my life where– and I think for a long time I didn’t realize this until I had gone into therapy. And I committed to it. And I worked through some of the issues that– of course I don’t think anybody ever works through all of them. And I’m thinking now of an interview in The Cut I read recently with the painter Amy Sherald, who talks about some kind of problem. She was having I think maybe insecurities. She said, “You don’t get over it. You don’t cure it. You just learn to live with it. You just gain strategies by which to manage the thing.” I think I did through therapy. And part of the problems with me were that I grew up in a household where my parents really disliked each other. So I didn’t have a template for romantic love. Not really. They really, deeply resented each other. And at some point actually– and I think this might be a traumatic thing for me. At some point they got into a physical fight in front of me and my sister. And it was severely disturbing. |
| C.T. WEBB: 04:48 | How old were you? |
| S. RODNEY: 04:49 | God. I must have been nine or ten. So it’s hard. It’s terrifying actually. Anyway, I had a really hard time ping-ponging between anger I felt at the world for putting me in the circumstances that I found myself in as a child and a teenager. And then later on. And being angry at myself for seemingly not being able just to transcend the circumstances I was given. So I think that made me difficult. But what I think now has happened is that I’ve become not a person who’s difficult to be with at all. I think like Steven– and I know you, Travis. And I’ve known you for years. That there’s something fundamental about us. And I think one of the things that unites us is that we fundamentally believe in leaving things better than we find them. And I think that is that core sort of kindness. That core sort of– “Is there a way for me to enter a situation and nurture something and make something blossom rather than kill it?” Right? “Rather than make it conform to my will.” I think that’s at my core. I do think that what I am now as a romantic partner likely is someone that’s a bit demanding. Because I think I’m demanding for myself. And I demand that I show up and be present. And I think that implicitly with my partner I demand that. Maybe demand is too strong a word, but there’s an urgent request for it coming from me implicitly. Be present with me. And be present in a way that’s intellectual and emotional and physical, right? And I remember this moment, being in– and this is kind of when I realized that the way that demand shows up may be too much for certain people. Because I think when I really like someone, the wattage is high. Right? |
| S. RODNEY: 06:54 | And I experienced this in Chicago a couple months back when I was visiting the School of the Art Institute to give a lecture. And I ran into a couple people, a couple artists, in the hotel lobby. I was just coming back to my hotel at– I think it was after dinner. Yeah. And I ran into Samuel Levi Jones and Genevieve Gaignard. And I was like, “Oh, my God.” Because I actually had heard about Genevieve. People had told me about her work. And they were like, “Oh. You should get to know her.” And I know Sam for a while now. For a couple years. And I really like Sam. Long story shorter, we went out for drinks together. And we was just sitting there chatting. And there was a moment when Sam was smiling at me. And he’s just really happy to be in that conversation with both of us. And I know that Sam and Genevieve are really good friends. And Sam and I have had long conversations. But there was something about the kind of love I felt in that moment from him that I almost felt like I didn’t have a place to put. In that moment I was just so tired. And I was just so run down from the week and the traveling and the lecturing and the la la la and the studio visits. Which I did a lot of. I felt like the wattage of his smile was too much. And so it made me kind of pull back a little bit. And I could feel myself doing that. |
| S. RODNEY: 08:22 | And I thought to myself, “Oh. This is what has happened with certain women I’ve been with.” Where the kind of wattage of my ardor for them was more than they had experienced before. Or more than they had capacity to deal with in that moment. So I think in a way, that is one of the challenges of being with me romantically. In that if I like you, I really, really like you. And I very rarely– we’ve talked about this. I don’t like that many people that way. I just don’t. So I think that it comes across as– just to round this out, I remember when I was with Jennifer. Who is the woman that I was deeply, deeply in love with and I moved to LA with back in ’99. There were moments when we’d just be out together. And we’d be sharing a meal or a glass of wine. And I would just look at her. We talked a lot. But sometimes I’d just look at her. And then I’d reach out. And I’d just slightly touch her face. And I’d just kind of follow the grooves of her face. And I remember one time I was doing that. And she was a little bit embarrassed. She’s kind of looking around at the other couples, who are kind of doing whatever couple-y thing they were doing. And I was just touching her face. And it was really– in that moment, it was a moment of just savoring her. Just savoring her physical presence. And I love that. And thankfully she was open to that. And so that’s a long answer. |
| C.T. WEBB: 10:15 | Other than the lovely anecdote at the end– which it reminds me of what you had said about reaching up to your father’s face when you were a boy, and having that slapped away. So clearly this is just a gesture and an expression and a way of you being kinesthetic with the world. Right? It’s one of the ways you express yourself. So bracketing that, I think what both of you just described is someone difficult to be with, so. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 10:48 | That’s hilarious. |
| S. RODNEY: 10:49 | That’s what you took from that. Okay. |
| C.T. WEBB: 10:51 | And I think– but so you used the word demanding. And I think that anyone– and I’m in your camp. Right? So I’m not painting you both with a different color brush than I would paint myself. I think to even someone that can say and articulate what they demand from a relationship– or Steven, to talk about the way that you cultivate yourself, your health, your experiences– and I mean that in not in a precious way. But just in a thoughtful, considered way. I think that that is necessarily difficult for another person. Because what you are both talking about is driving. Right? You’re talking about how you are going to drive and orient your lives. And as soon as you add another person into that formulation, that is a recipe for sharp elbows. Because the ways that you will see to do things, or want to do things, or the things that you demand, may not – and probably often will not – comport with the other person in that exact moment or time. Right? Because we’re emotional apes. Our emotions are volatile. And again I know I am difficult. But I think that’s not a bad thing. Right? I think that this is– I very much believe in egalitarianism when it comes to political systems and economic systems. And all the rest of it. But I think it is manifestly obvious that different people attend to their lives with different degrees of thoughtfulness. And I am okay being someone that is more difficult and more thoughtful. Because this is my time here on the planet. And I’m going to bring a certain kind of intensity and intention and rigor. I mean, these are all hard words. Right? This is never on anyone’s match.com profile. Right? These are all things that you would pull off the list. And in fact, on the personality traits, these are not going to be things in the positive column. And so I think that there should be some honest acknowledgement that myself and both of you motherfuckers are difficult human beings. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 13:34 | But if that’s the definition, I’m cool with it. Just like you. I’m fine. Because I think I’m present. And I get that you guys are present with people. And presence is really meaning– for me, presence means vulnerability. It means you can’t be right. You have an opinion. But it may not be right. It means all those things that– I’m okay with the sharp elbows if that’s the case. Sharp elbows be damned. It feel like that’s really the good work, then. If we’re talking about being with someone. I don’t take my friends for granted. My family for granted. I don’t take people that I don’t even know for granted. Everyone’s needs matters. So my take on that is, that sounds fantastic. I mean, if I can arrive and show up for myself, you’re getting a better Steven. You don’t want the Steven from 2004. He was a mess. And this guy’s a mess too. But he knows he’s a mess. There’s a difference. So I’m cool with that. |
| C.T. WEBB: 14:30 | [crosstalk] for sure. That is different. Yeah. |
| S. RODNEY: 14:32 | And that makes me think of– showing up and being present with that kind of vulnerability, and recognizing other people’s needs, reminds me actually of an editorial meeting we had at Hyperallergic the other day. We have a new reviews editor named Dessane. And Dessane is super thoughtful. And by thoughtful, I mean present in that way we are talking about. Hyper-aware of the people’s needs. There’s a moment in the meeting where one writer said something– he was talking about the situation with a particular piece that had come out – I think he had written it – about salaries in the art scene. Mostly large institutions like museums. We were talking about the breakdown at a particular institution by gender. And he said something like– and I know he misspoke here. I know that he didn’t– I don’t know this for sure. But I’m relatively sure that the way that he delivered this wasn’t the way– it wasn’t the sort of optimal version of it that was in his head. He said something like, “The salaries for curators were dragged down by the women’s salaries.” Something like that. So it made it sound as if the women were responsible for a decrease in their own salary. That kind of thing with dragging down the whatever quotient. |
| C.T. WEBB: 16:10 | But what he means is the pay gap is affecting the overall compensation for art [crosstalk]. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. |
| S. RODNEY: 16:16 | Precisely. Precisely. Precisely. And, well, nobody else in the room said anything. And there was a beat. There was a couple seconds where he was either thinking about saying the next thing or something along those lines. And Dessane jumped in and said, “Well, I don’t think you mean that the women drag down their own salaries.” And it was a corrective that, yes. Slightly awkward. Right? You kind of have to go– everybody in the room kind of has to adjust themselves to that. Right? Because he’s essentially saying, “No. What you said was wrong. And it was wrong because it also suggests a pejorative.” Right? A way of sort of re-inscribing that sexism which we in the room don’t agree with. Right? Awkward. Right? |
| S. FULLWOOD: 17:08 | Supposedly. Yes. |
| S. RODNEY: 17:09 | Right. Right. Right. But doing that is exactly what presence looks like. In fact I’ll go so far as to say you know you are present when you are willing to say and do the awkward thing that is the greater truth. Right? That lies beneath the sort of veneer of convivial conversation. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 17:30 | Absolutely. Well said. |
| S. RODNEY: 17:32 | And I love that moment. Because underneath all of that was the clear recognition from Dessane that the thing mattered. Right? That the ways that we talk about these things matter. And, yes. I think that is difficult. And, yes. If that’s the difficulty we’re talking about in being who I am, yeah. Sign me up. I’m there. I’m good with that. Yeah. I want a partner who will be in that conversation. And will adjust and recognize that, “Oh. Yeah. That’s the right thing to say. We need to recognize this. And we need to move on from this point of clarity.” |
| C.T. WEBB: 18:12 | Oh. No. Go ahead, Steven. What were you going to say? |
| S. FULLWOOD: 18:14 | I was just thinking about what you said, Seph. And the part of it was like, “I would need a partner to be able to hash it out.” Right? Not necessarily come to the point that it was wrong or right. But just that we would hash it out and say– language. “What does this mean to you? Here’s how I heard it.” And I do that fairly well with my friends. Fairly well. Depends on the person. Because sometimes you weigh your words differently. Because you know this person feels this way. And blah blah blah. And you might not want to get into it. But other times you’re like, “No. You are saying these things. Is this what you mean? Is this what you really mean?” And it’s made friendships stronger. It’s made my work relationships stronger with other people I’ve collaborated with. But without that, the quality of being able to, like you said, be awkward, or just jump in with some different way of seeing it, and being willing to risk it– because when people do– and cancel culture. People are really super angry now. So if you disagree with them, then– and fortunately I don’t have a lot of cancel culture people around me. Because I just don’t. But I want to have better conversations. I want to be called on the carpet. I also want my thoughts to be not just taken wholesale because you like me. Do you know? |
| C.T. WEBB: 19:30 | The thing that I think should be added to that though is that it does require– from an intimate– so we’re talking about kind of broader social situations where I feel like the stakes are fairly high to maybe make corrections like that. Because you don’t know how that statement’s going to be picked up by other people in the room. And so but in an intimate relationship, that level of attention to everyday interactions can be exhausting for the partner. And I know this for Molly. And I’ll see myself doing it. So we’ll be watching a TV show or something like that. Like Veep. We’ve just started trying to watch Veep. I know it ended. But I hadn’t been watching. We hadn’t seen any of the seasons. And I have a very difficult time watching TV shows and shutting off my critical commentary about production quality, plausibility of the plot. All this sort of stuff. And it’s not that– |
| S. RODNEY: 20:36 | And by the way, Travis. Even before you started telling this story, I would have guessed that about you. |
| C.T. WEBB: 20:44 | Sure. Sure. I know. Well, you and I, we’ve had this conversation around things. And sometimes I’ll miss a beat. Right? I won’t give too many details. Because I don’t know how public you want it to be. But you had an issue at work. And there was some discussion around finances and whatnot. And you were kind of aligned with one group of people’s thinking on the matter. And I very much took a minority position. Because from my own experience of running a business, the complaints just didn’t quite add up to me. And under other circumstances that would be fine for us to have that conversation. But you were just in a moment of needing to talk. You just wanted to be able to exhale. And I arrested that. And it was irritating to you. As it would have been irritating to me if I was in the same spot. Because of course I get that way sometimes. I get caught up in things. And I’m just reaching out to you or a friend or Molly. Because I just want to just feel something. And then process later. And it’s irritating if you don’t give the person the space to just be able to feel something. Because of course I should trust you– and I do trust you to– you need a beat. You need a beat. You need a second. Then you’re going to come back at that and chew over it. Of course the same thing is true of Molly. I wouldn’t be married to her if it wasn’t true of her. But sometimes I’m impatient with other people’s timing on processing things. And so it can be irritating to watch a show with me if I’m not keeping that in check. Because it’s not that Molly isn’t capable of evaluating all of those things. Of course she is. She’s just not right then. She’s tired. She wants to just shut off and watch. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 22:32 | Disappear into the narrative, I guess. |
| C.T. WEBB: 22:33 | Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So that makes me difficult to be with. Because you want spaces to just kind of spread out on a beanbag. Right? You don’t always want to have to be in a straight-backed chair. |
| S. RODNEY: 22:49 | So that leads me to a question. And then maybe we can take this up the next time. Is that when we talk about romance in our lives, in our daily lives, is it episodic? Or is it kind of like a kind of baseline that you–? Almost I want to think of it as kind of like a running thread through the scheme of your life. Or is it something that just shows up now and then? And now we’re romantic. And then it goes away. I mean, I think this is something that it’ll probably take a podcast to get through. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 23:27 | Okay. |
| C.T. WEBB: 23:28 | Yeah. Great suggestion. I love that. Sort of the nature of romance. And I expect we probably experience it differently. But so definitely a fruitful conversation. Steven, do you have anything you want to close with? |
| S. FULLWOOD: 23:44 | No. It’s just that I’m so difficult. I’m so over myself. So, anyway [crosstalk]. |
| C.T. WEBB: 23:57 | So, okay. As always, thanks very much for the conversation. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 24:00 | Thank you. |
| S. RODNEY: 24:00 | Indeed. |
| C.T. WEBB: 24:01 | I’ll talk to you soon. |
| S. RODNEY: 24:01 | Take care. |
References
**No references for Podcast 0079*