0080 | July 15, 2019
(r)omance: episodic or epic
We often talk about our lives as if it is one long running story, from cradle to grave. We do the same in our romantic lives, from young and fantastic to mature and sober. But is that true? How much do we actually learn from romance?
| C.T. WEBB: 00:18 | [music] Good afternoon, good morning or good evening and welcome to The American Age Podcast. This is C. Travis Webb, editor of The American Age, And I am speaking to you from Southern California. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 00:28 | Hello. My name is Steven G. Fullwood. I’m one of the cofounders of the Nomadic Archivists Project and I’m coming to you from Harlem. It’s sweltering, but there’s a nice breeze. |
| S. RODNEY: 00:38 | Hi, my name is Seph Rodney. I am a senior editor at the Hyperallergic blog and the author of The Personalization of the Museum Visit, out from Routledge just the end of May, a little more than a month ago. Yeah. And I’m in The Bronx, The South Bronx, which apparently, according to someone I had a conversation with last night, will be gone because of climate change in about five years. So let’s chew on that [laughter]. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 01:11 | Well, I mean, if we have time to chew. Five years? Oh, okay. |
| S. RODNEY: 01:17 | That’s what she said, yeah. |
| C.T. WEBB: 01:18 | Yeah, five years sound a little apocalyptic, but– |
| S. FULLWOOD: 01:22 | A little? |
| C.T. WEBB: 01:24 | You know? |
| S. RODNEY: 01:25 | I don’t know. You didn’t have the conversations she’s had. I’m just saying, this woman was not– it’s not like she had firecrackers in her hair or anything. She was a normal human being who’s taken some serious– I don’t know. She’d done some study on it for some– it was related to her work, and whatever. |
| C.T. WEBB: 01:43 | Yeah, I– |
| S. FULLWOOD: 01:43 | 2024– |
| C.T. WEBB: 01:45 | No, go ahead, Stephen. What were you going to say? |
| S. FULLWOOD: 01:47 | 2024, that’s it, to get out of there. Yeah. |
| C.T. WEBB: 01:49 | Yeah. Yeah. Well, I was going to say, I think people that are often that doom and gloom about stuff like that don’t own any stock in Walmart. Do you think there is a shot that your neighborhood will just be festooned with rafts and inflatable Walmart structures? Anyway, so I’m sure that The South Bronx will be there in five years. |
| S. RODNEY: 02:15 | Well, I mean, I’m not saying that all of it is going to be gone. I think that she’s saying that significant parts of it will be under water. So but that’s probably far afield of what we want to talk about today– |
| C.T. WEBB: 02:29 | Yeah. Yeah, for sure. But– |
| S. RODNEY: 02:30 | –which is romance. Yeah. |
| C.T. WEBB: 02:33 | Yeah. But interesting, and maybe we should do a series of podcasts on climate change from the perspective of non-scientists. It’s not [crosstalk], yeah. |
| S. RODNEY: 02:43 | Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, that’d be a worthwhile discussion. Yeah. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 02:45 | That’d be interesting. Yeah. |
| C.T. WEBB: 02:47 | So this is to remind our listeners that we practice a form of what we like to call intellectual intimacy, which is giving each other the space and time to figure out things out loud and together. And today, if you notice any changes in the flow of the conversation, it’s because our video has just crapped out. So we’re speaking to you in the same way that you would be hearing us, which will probably be interesting, I think, for the three of us. And as Seph already mentioned, so romance is the topic today, that’s romance with a lowercase r. And Seph, I know you actually had the closing question in the segue to today’s topic, I think. Yes? |
| S. RODNEY: 03:26 | Right. So my question was whether you and Steven experience romance as a kind of low-constant in your lives or it bubbles up episodically? Yeah. I’ll just let it stay there. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 03:45 | Go ahead, Travis. |
| C.T. WEBB: 03:46 | See, I was actually going to actually kick it to you, Steven, since I was– |
| S. FULLWOOD: 03:49 | I know. Hah [laughter]! |
| C.T. WEBB: 03:52 | I appreciate a double hah. Okay. So for me, we’ve talked about this at various points in the podcast. I experience my own life episodically. Right? So I don’t have a strong internal narrative running through my brain on regular basis. I can sort of stop and collect the episodes and tell a story, but it’s very much an on-the-fly assemblage. So for me, that would then, the romance would kind of fall into that basket of it being episodic. It probably, far more consistently now that I’m married, so because I’m very committed to having a hot relationship with my wife. And I mean hot in a variety of valences. I don’t just mean sexually hot. I mean something that is not taken for granted. I have no interest in sleepwalking through my marriage and going, “Oh, wow. We were married 60 years.” |
| S. FULLWOOD: 05:00 | “Hah, we made it.” |
| C.T. WEBB: 05:01 | Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And not to say that this is other people. I mean, clearly it is other people. So I see my marriage, in some ways, as a kind of spiritual practice in that all aspects of who I am are all in that relationship and are alive and hot in that way. So there’s a lot of negotiation with myself and with Molly. And I don’t mean that in a– I mean that in a heated way. Not to say that our relationship is contentious, I just mean that we are both very engaged in what we’re doing together. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 05:39 | Oh, awesomesaucery. |
| S. RODNEY: 05:41 | It does. That sounds good. |
| C.T. WEBB: 05:44 | So Steven– [laughter], hot potato back to you. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 05:48 | Oh, it’s pretty cold by now. Now it’s cold [laughter]. So it gave me a moment because I wanted to make sure that romance wasn’t solely based on a relationship with another humanoid. Yes, and I did say humanoid. But what excited me is that when I was doing some searching briefly, the five characteristics of romanticism really excite me. So one of them is an interest in the common man and childhood; yes. Strong senses, emotions, and feelings; absolutely yes. Awe of nature– I was watching Our Planet part 2 yesterday. I love nature. I think it’s a wonderful thing. Celebration of the individual, so not just solely me, but also celebrating my friends or people from the office; love all of that. And I love the last one. It’s my favorite one. It’s the importance of imagination. So I feel like I live a romantic life in those five characteristics. Absolutely. And so I don’t feel like it’s episodic. I feel like it’s low-grade– it’s almost– so when you said that your spiritual practice is your marriage, I feel like my life is my spiritual practice. So absolutely, I feel like it can be episodic in some ways, maybe with humans, but my life is always engaged in some kind of romantic practice. |
| C.T. WEBB: 07:07 | So you pulled in Romanticism with a capital R for the conversation. |
| S. RODNEY: 07:11 | Exactly. Yeah– |
| S. FULLWOOD: 07:12 | Oh, we’re doing–? |
| C.T. WEBB: 07:14 | Which I think is– which is fine. Which is fine. |
| S. RODNEY: 07:15 | I think it’s cheating, actually [laughter]. Let’s just call a spade a spade. Come on, now. I mean, we started off this conversation with me saying romance in, like, small r personal kind of like– |
| C.T. WEBB: 07:29 | You did. You did. |
| S. RODNEY: 07:31 | –or as Borat would say, sexy time that you make with somebody else. |
| C.T. WEBB: 07:36 | Ooh, sexy time. |
| S. RODNEY: 07:38 | But you done and gone and then widened it out to include all kinds of things, Gerard Manley Hopkins and [crosstalk]– |
| C.T. WEBB: 07:47 | William Wordsworth. |
| S. RODNEY: 07:49 | –and honestly. |
| C.T. WEBB: 07:50 | Yeah. William Wordsworth is what I– Recollections from Childhood and whatnot. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 07:54 | Yeah. Awesomesauce. Yeah. It just feels good. And I feel like, so with the low r, I mean the lower-case r, I’ll say that it’s more episodic because I’m in and out of relationships in that sense. But even then, a lot of my exes, I get along with them. So that’s more friendshippy, or at least some level of intimacy that I still maintain with them. And so I feel a lot of gratitude that I’m able to maintain these kinds of connections. |
| S. RODNEY: 08:25 | But I do think that that’s a kind of romance, Steven. I mean, I think that you haven’t yet said that, with regard to the friendships that you still maintain with ex-lovers, but I do think that there is a kind of romantic impulse behind– because, look, I was thinking about this the other day. Travis, Steven and I lead really busy lives. I was thinking about this when we were trying to figure out the calendar for the next month, when we were going to get together on Skype. And Steven, of course, is in LA. He’s in Nashville. Travis is in Lake Tahoe. He’s in Barcelona. I’m going to be in Cleveland and then Detroit and other places. And I was thinking we are precisely those kinds of professionals who really have to calendar shift for anything to happen. And I was thinking, by the same token, that making time for each other to have these really intimate conversations is a kind of a romantic gesture. There is something, just in the sort of cultivation of intimacy that is a kind of romance. Isn’t it? |
| S. FULLWOOD: 09:44 | I think so. Yeah. Go ahead, Travis. I’m sorry. |
| C.T. WEBB: 09:45 | Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I was going to say, to jump back for half a second before I address what Seph said, I think it’s fair for Steven to bring in the capital R, even though you set that parameter, only because I found real value in it. And undoubtedly there are scholars that have looked this, but it is so patently obvious that what has become lower case r romance has so completely borrowed from the romantic movement in its imagery, I mean, in its most cliched forms, in its imagery, around rustic weddings. And I mean that is– rustic where the peasants were. Primary to the romantic movement, that’s not what was being idealized. And so I think it very much shapes– and Steven’s gesture caused me to reflect on that in a way that I hadn’t thought about previously. And so but to try and bring that back to Seph about it being a kind of romance, so in that way, yes, absolutely. And I feel like maybe it’s changing with the newer generation, but in previous generations the romance (lower-case r) was too cramped. Right? The idea, it was too locked into kind of a sexual romantic intimacy, when in fact, our capacities to be romantic (and now sort of playing with the capital and lower-case R) are far more expansive and wildly (pun intended) exceed the boundaries of sort of staid standard social interactions and social relationships. So yes, yes. Yes, Seph, I think it is a kind of romance, is what I’m saying [laughter]. |
| S. RODNEY: 11:44 | I like that. I like that. I actually think that, at least the ways that I’m thinking about it consciously now, romance in my life is pretty episodic. Because I don’t think I have the sort of deep love of humanity that Steven talks about. And I don’t think I have that– and I’m not in a marriage in a way that I get to explore sort of all aspects of myself in a relationship in the way that you have, Travis, with Molly. I feel like– and I’m not saying this in a way to say, “Oh, boo-hoo me,” but I can see moments when I kind of almost do romance in a kind of technologically dystopian way. So I was exchanging text messages with someone last night, and we were just arranging a time to meet. And it started out– and I think you both kind of get how this works, especially for this generation. We started out with emails. Basically, she had sent an email around saying, “I’m doing this thing at my studio on such-and-such a date. People come up and see what we’re up to.” And I wrote back, and polite, but only sort of, very low-grade intimate terms, “Thanks for inviting me. I can’t make it up there that day, but hopefully we’ll connect another time.” And she wrote back maybe an hour later like, “Yeah, it would be great to catch up when I’m back in the city on such-and-such a date.” And I wrote back, “Yes, I would like that.” And I think something about that turned a corner so that– no, actually– we actually did conduct all this in email. I was about to say we switched to text, but we didn’t. It was email. It got later and later in the day, and we got progressively closer to figuring out what this date would look like. So an hour later it’s like, “Okay. I’ll be coming from this place. Where do you want to meet?” “Okay, I’ll be coming from work, so let’s meet here.” “What time?” “Okay.” “Tea or cocktail?” that kind of thing. And I remember that the last message that was sent, I sent to her at like 12:30. So there’s some kind of romantic component there. Right? There’s some kind of – what’s the word? – kind of seduction going on where we started a email conversation at – I don’t know – four o’clock, three o’clock in the afternoon. And it ended up ending at 12:30. And all we’re doing, really, is just setting up a time to meet with each other. But there is a romantic– for me, given the way my life is now where I’m so busy doing all the projects that I’m doing that I take a little pleasure in having that little kind of electronic meet cute, even though it’s somewhat promising, but I have no idea how this is going to turn out. We might see each other in person and be like, “Oh, no. Look at the time.” |
| S. FULLWOOD: 15:00 | It doesn’t even matter. It doesn’t even matter, Seph, though. Does it really matter? Because it’s the thing that you were talking about. It was that exchange. Do you know? So not being attached to the outcome of it makes it even more special and less predicated upon it needs to end like this or progress like this. It was like you were just enchanted. She was enchanted. So there’s something for that and I love that. Do you know? |
| C.T. WEBB: 15:28 | Yeah. I completely echo Steven on that one. I mean, the charge and the titillation from that possibility can sometimes be sustaining on its own, I mean, maybe not for too long. You might get frustrated in a variety of ways. But the piece of it that really takes the conversation too far afield, so I don’t necessarily want to go down that road, but it did occur to me is how much those initial stages are strategic and really, power is at play. And sort of demonstrating of lack of eagerness to meet and to engage, really kind of keeping your desire in check, is a big part of what the romantic buildup is. Right? Because if you fly your desire too freely, or too garishly, too obviously, it can scare off a potential mate. So you have to restrain what is, in fact, your desire. And presumably, the other person is doing the same. And that restraint on one’s desire and the power that is connected with that is a real part of the kind of romance we’re talking about now. For me at least, not to speak for the two of you, but not all operating in the kind of more capacious sense of romance that we’ve talked about amongst the three of us. Right? So maybe early on, when, Steven, when you I– and Seph, it was so long ago, I don’t remember. Right? But certainly, Steven, when you and I first met, I do have a little bit of a sense in my head around– for me, so not speaking for you. You’re the kid on the bike and you’re in a new neighborhood and you’ve just run into the other neighborhood kids. And you have to posture a little bit. You got to, “Look, I can do a wheelie on my bike,” that kind of thing. So there is a little bit of that kind of exchange in our initial interaction. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 17:47 | I kind of relate to that, yeah. |
| C.T. WEBB: 17:47 | Which I would have in a lot of situations like that as well. But then that goes away. Right? I mean, so that’s just not really operating anymore in our relationship. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 17:58 | Right. Well, you filled out the– you filled out the outline of what I was trying to figure out. So who is this guy? Who is he to Seph? What are his politics? Is he a kind person? The sorts of things that I’m interesting in connected with human beings, these are, so the qualities that I look for. If you were like, “Yeah, that old battle-axe,” I’d be like, okay, I can’t deal with this guy because he’s calling his wife a battle-axe or he’s a misanthrope. I’d go “That’s enough. That’s enough. I’m out of here.” |
| C.T. WEBB: 18:30 | Yeah. Yeah. Sure. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 18:31 | And then there’s those reflections. You guys reflect back to me qualities that help me think, oh, well, maybe I should say that slightly differently, because that’s not exactly what I mean. Or do I mean that? And do I have the courage of my convictions to say that? So I enjoy that dance. Do you know? Which is partially why I’m interested in doing this podcast. I’m like, okay, so what do we think? What do I think? And then also, when these convergences come along, what can I learn? Do you know? So yeah. |
| C.T. WEBB: 18:59 | Yeah. So okay. So to take us back to Seph’s initial– so the narrative versus the episodic, I mean, it sounds to me like the three of us sort of are in some kind of– although I guess, Steven, your initial answer would have– you may have hedged a little bit towards the narrative – right? – I mean, towards the constant undercurrent. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 19:19 | I think so. I think so, and I think it’s because– so for example, something really beautiful happened this morning. I’m sitting in front of the laundry room. I’m doing my laundry. I’m sitting outside with my computer, and a young woman and, I presume, her brother, they were talking to the guy who owns the laundromat. Right? And some guy rides by on the bike and clearly they know him, and they’re talking to him. And let’s call him Bob. And Bob rides off, but the little boy, who couldn’t have been about four years old, goes, “Bye.” And the guy is all the way down the block. And he’s going, “Bye!” And then he puts his hand up to his brow to see a little bit further. And he was just standing there. I was like, this is one of the most beautiful moments of my life. I just love this. And I’m just witnessing, and all he’s doing is trying to be heard by that guy and be recognized that he’s saying goodbye. Whatever was in this little kid head, that’s my version of it. But those kinds of things enchant me. I’m constantly enchanted, constantly. Do you know? And I’ve only found the language for it recently, where I would just remember things that people do outside of me, had nothing to do with me, and go, wow, that’s beautiful. That’s really awesome. And I feel like having those moments significantly reduces, to me – at least this is my theory today, right now – is that I’m not always looking for someone to give me pleasure. I have pleasure. Yeah. |
| C.T. WEBB: 20:42 | Do you, at this stage of your life, Steven, so you’ve got– I mean, we’re all about the same age, but I think you have a few years on Seph and I. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 20:48 | I’m 53. Yep. |
| C.T. WEBB: 20:50 | Yeah. So are you less willing– I mean, I think I probably just know the answer, but I’m hoping you might be able to take it in an interesting way. Are you less willing to make the trades and negotiations that are necessary to have a particular one person in your life in relation to kind of the project of your life at this point? |
| S. FULLWOOD: 21:16 | I think so. I think so, but I’m having a pretty good time here [laughter]. So if I felt more lonely, then I would. Then I’d be on the apps. I’d be on the dating apps. I’d be out more often. And, well, we started off with this idea of being busy, I want to add that I do things that I love. The majority of the things that I do, I love. The other stuff is just maintenance, cleaning up, doing laundry and that kind of thing. But my friends, see the reason why I can say I think so is because I do that with my friends. It’s just not a sexual relationship. We’re constantly sort of thinking about how we’re relating to one another. Do you know? And so I think so. I think that there’re always concessions, particularly if you care about people. You don’t even see it as concession. You see at as everybody doesn’t get what that want. That’s just maturity [laughter]. That’s just maturity. “I want this for dinner and I want to be here mad.” It’s like, pick your fights, stupid. Not, stupid. Okay. Pick your fights, but also be mindful of that community’s been involved in every step of my life in terms of the quality of what I do, how I live, moderating my behavior, working with me on projects. So I’m engaged in that way. And I thought I was more polyamorous, but then there’s just times, it’s like, “Ah! I got to hang out with this guy. Oh, okay. Well, today I got to call this guy.” So that one person would seem to be efficient in some ways. But I think I would do it. I think I would definitely engage in another monogamous relationship. I think I have the quality and the capability, but, hey. |
| C.T. WEBB: 22:56 | Right. So amongst our 50-plus listeners out there, if there’re any single men that– no, I’m just kidding [laughter]. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 23:07 | This is the personal ad. I like long walks on the beach. |
| S. RODNEY: 23:13 | Shit, this just turned into Craigslist. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 23:15 | [crosstalk]. |
| S. RODNEY: 23:16 | Ooh, that’s– oh my God. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 23:17 | No, not even– what is that called? eHarmony or– no, this is kind of scary, but anyway. Yeah. |
| C.T. WEBB: 23:29 | So– yeah, yeah, yeah. Go ahead, Seph. |
| S. RODNEY: 23:30 | Well, I want to just chime in and say that my actual [lived?] experience– I’m going to just say actual. My experience right now, is quite different from yours, Steven, in that I find that I actually, for the first time, am feeling lonely these days. And it’s been a long time since I’ve felt that way. And my relationship to my community has never been strong, not my geographic community, not my racial community, not my– |
| S. FULLWOOD: 24:06 | Our community? |
| S. RODNEY: 24:08 | –national community of Jamaicans, not my Christian community, the church I grew up in, none of that. I’ve constantly been moving in and out of communities, basically, since I was 17. And this is the first time that I’ve settled into a community that really marries my intellectual concerns, my emotional interests and my career, which is the art scene. And now I’m finding myself cultivating really good friendships. They’re slowly happening. There’re a couple people I know that I would call if I needed something or I can call because I just want to spend with them. But this is the first time in my life where I’ve felt like I have that, but I still spend a lot of time, my actual practical time, just by myself, either seeing stuff or writing stuff or editing stuff. So I do feel like I’m in a position where I really want to pursue a romantic relationship in a sort of classic monogamous, walks on the beach, late night dinners kind of way. And I’m glad we’re having this conversation because I realize that, yeah, I am actually open to doing all the next sort of heavy lifting and the negotiating to figure that out. But I think my position is that I need some boxes to be checked before I even engage in that. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 25:51 | Okay. I understand. |
| C.T. WEBB: 25:55 | So I think we’re probably coming up on time. I assume we can pick up the romance with the lower-case, although now blurred capital R, in our next conversation. But did either one of you have anything you wanted to close with or–? |
| S. FULLWOOD: 26:15 | No, I liked Seph’s close. I think that’s good. That’s a nice– yeah [laughter]. |
| C.T. WEBB: 26:22 | So okay, as always, thanks very much for the conversation, and I’ll talk to you guys next week. |
| S. RODNEY: 26:28 | Okay. Take care. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 26:30 | All right. Bye-bye. |
| S. RODNEY: 26:31 | Bye. [music] |
References
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