0082 | July 29, 2019
Climate Change: It’s the End of the World as We Know It and I Feel…
The hosts discuss climate change. It’s in the news all the time, but how we talk about climate change is as important as identifying its parameters and potential consequences. How are we talking about our precarious place in the world?
| C.T. WEBB: 00:18 | Good afternoon, good morning, or good evening and welcome to The American Age podcast. This is C. Travis Webb, editor of The American Age, and this week I am speaking to you from a sunny and beautiful downtown Cleveland, Ohio. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 00:32 | Hi. This is Steven G. Fullwood, and I am the co-founder of the Nomadic Archivists Project and I’m coming to you from a very sunny Harlem. |
| S. RODNEY: 00:42 | Hi. I’m Seph Rodney. I’m a senior editor at the Hyperallergic blog and the recent author of “The Personalization of the Museum Visit,” which was put out by Routledge in May of this year. I also want to make an announcement about another book which Steven G. Fullwood and I are actually involved in co-editing. It’s slated to be the third or fourth, I think, in the series. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 01:08 | Fourth. |
| S. RODNEY: 01:09 | Thank you– called “Living and Sustaining a Creative Life,” and this version is writing. So Steven and I are co-editing that. The publishing due date for that is 2021. Sharon Louden just announced it on Twitter– I think it was yesterday. We just had signed the contracts and sent them back on Monday, so we’re off to the races. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 01:32 | Off to the races. |
| S. RODNEY: 01:33 | And I’m happy about that. That’s a good thing. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 01:35 | Yeah. It’s awesome. It’s going to be a great experience, I think. |
| S. RODNEY: 01:39 | Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 01:40 | Yeah. |
| C.T. WEBB: 01:41 | Yeah, and congratulations to both of you for that. I know that is going to be a lot of work. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 01:45 | It is. |
| S. RODNEY: 01:46 | It is. |
| C.T. WEBB: 01:46 | It is. It is going to be a lot of work. |
| S. RODNEY: 01:48 | A ton of– |
| S. FULLWOOD: 01:49 | But good work. |
| S. RODNEY: 01:49 | –personal essays from writers who are in the field doing their thing. It’ll be great. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 01:53 | Yeah. Lots of correspondents. Lot of editing. Back and forth. Yeah. Good stuff. |
| C.T. WEBB: 01:59 | So this is to remind our listeners that we like to practice a form of what we call “intellectual intimacy,” which is giving each other the space and time to figure out things out loud and together. And this week, we are transitioning to talking about climate change. And we’re going to come at the monumental topic from a variety of angles, like we typically do. Initial conversation’s just going to be around sort of where we’re at with it. And you guys will listen in on the conversation. We haven’t really talked a lot about it as friends, I don’t think. I mean, here and there. But it’s not– so I will be curious and excited to see where you guys are at on the topic. So why don’t– Steven, Seph, one of you want to jump in, sort of how do you feel about climate change? How often do you think about it? What do you think about it in terms of? Do you have little containers for it? Is it a place for your anxiety? Is it a place for work? How often are you engaged in the topic with others, on the cultural field? Wide open. |
| S. RODNEY: 03:17 | If I may? |
| C.T. WEBB: 03:18 | Sure. |
| S. RODNEY: 03:18 | I have an anecdote. Over the weekend, because I knew that we were going to have this conversation today, I spent about an hour leafing through my old Facebook feed. At the time, when I started this search, I didn’t recall exactly when I had made a post. But I remember I had made a post after I had had a conversation with Karoline. It was dating last year. Karoline Hassfurter. Karoline who works for the UN and had made a visit to the CERN laboratory, C-E-R-N, labs. I forget exactly where they are. I want to say Switzerland? |
| C.T. WEBB: 03:59 | Yeah, I think that’s [inaudible] |
| S. RODNEY: 03:58 | But it’s where the Large Hadron Collider was founded and is being operated. And she said that she had a conversation with one of the CERN scientists, and she– I guess it was a brief while after they had done their presentation on whatever. She asked one of them, “Given the kind of ecological crisis that we’re on the precipice of, what do you think our prospects are?” And he says, “50 years at best.” And this is a scientist at CERN. So that was sobering for me, when she told me that. And then she told me– oh. I should add this, actually. We had a conversation a couple months later, when she was visiting India. And I want to say that she was in Mumbai, but I’m not positive about that. I just know that she was somewhere in India. And we were having a conversation with each other and it was 11 o’clock at night, her time. And she was in a hotel, and she said, “Guess what the temperature is?” I was like, “I don’t know.” She said, “It’s 112 degrees and it’s 11 o’clock at night.” So both of those things for me were– I’m trying to avoid the clichés that come to mind. They were startling to me. I have a sense of what climate change looks like really only because I read the news every day and I’m very plugged in to the kind of conversation that’s happening around the ecological crisis. So I see the YouTube videos about the large plastic island in the middle of the Pacific, right? And I saw the viral video of the straw stuck up the turtle’s nose and them trying to pull it out and save the turtle’s life. And I’ve seen the videos of whales washing up and disgorging the contents of their stomachs which is just full of plastic that they couldn’t digest. And I know about the bees dying out and the coral reef shrinking. All of it. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 06:17 | Polar caps melting. Yes. |
| S. RODNEY: 06:20 | Right. All of that. I think where the rubber meets the road for me, more so even than the predictions from the scientists, or more so even than the almost uninhabitably hot places in the world right now, I think where it feels most – I don’t know – almost personal, is when I go to the neighborhood C-Town super market, which is about a block and a half from me. And every single time I go– almost. I would say 99 out of 100 times I go, I have a bag with me. And every single time I go, I am the only person I see who does that. And they’re all leaving, every day, with these hundreds – eventually thousands, eventually millions – of plastic bags, that are single-use, that they’re going to take home and they’re going to throw in the trash. And I see that every time I go there and it makes me despair. It makes me think, “Yeah, we’re not really equipped to”– “This is why we only have 50 years, because we either don’t know what we’re doing or we don’t care, or both.” By the way, I know that New York state just passed a bill that will phase out single-use plastic bags, but they’re being replaced, essentially, by paper bags. So it’s not like you’re going to force people to bring their own bags to go shopping. And there’s a question as to whether or not they’re going to charge consumers for the use of these single-use paper bags. But we’re nowhere. We’re absolutely nowhere. And 50 years, I think, it sounds reasonable. Given all the other things that are happening in the environment, that makes sense to me. |
| C.T. WEBB: 08:24 | Steven, do you mind if I jump in? |
| S. FULLWOOD: 08:27 | No, go right ahead. |
| C.T. WEBB: 08:28 | So I think predictions like that are nonsense. |
| S. RODNEY: 08:36 | Okay. |
| C.T. WEBB: 08:37 | I don’t care what a small particle physicist at the Hadron Collider said about climate change– |
| S. FULLWOOD: 08:45 | Hey! I’m not a small particle physicist, but I’m offended [laughter]. |
| C.T. WEBB: 08:51 | –any more than I care about what any non-expert on the climate says about what the, sort of, long-cycle climate changes that happen. Obviously, this is not directed at you at all. |
| S. RODNEY: 09:08 | No, I get that. |
| C.T. WEBB: 09:09 | First of all, amongst climate change scientists, there is– and I am not a climate change denier. Clearly, anthropogenic climate change, it’s happening, it’s real. Pumping carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. Large scale populations, ranches, plastic islands. Bee populations that are collapsing, although there is now some research that shows that they’ve also begun to flourish in other areas. I believe all of that stuff. I’m not a skeptic in that way about it at all. |
| S. RODNEY: 09:51 | No, I know this about you. |
| C.T. WEBB: 09:54 | What I am absolutely skeptical of is prognostication about the imminent demise of the species and the imminent demise and impending collapse of civilization, because this is a long-running theme in human history– |
| S. RODNEY: 10:13 | Oh, yeah, it is. |
| C.T. WEBB: 10:14 | –this fretting about the imminent collapse of the human project that we call civilization is just the note that we hit. It’s the theme that we use and we return to, I would argue, because we are anxious monkeys that are aware of our own imminent demise and that death is always on the horizon for us individually and so the things that we identify with also seem precarious. Because they are. I’m not saying they’re not precarious. And I certainly don’t believe in the limitless future of human beings, either. We are on some kind of clock. But it’s always 50 years. The horizon is always just beyond the limit of your own life span or just happens to be– |
| S. FULLWOOD: 11:15 | Right. Or your generation. |
| C.T. WEBB: 11:17 | Yeah. Generation. Thank you. That’s a great identification with it. So even though, of course– I have my own anecdote that I’ll save, because I feel like I took Steven’s turn and want to let Steven jump in. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 11:34 | Oh, you didn’t. |
| C.T. WEBB: 11:34 | So the [inaudible] anecdote that I would give around climate change that actually does alarm me but also introduces an element of humility into the discussion – for me, at least – is the riddle of the pond and the frog. Now, if you’re observing a pond and it has a frog population of 10, and at a certain point, if that frog population exceeds the pond’s ability to support that population, there will be a mass die-off of frogs. So let’s say that pond can handle 10,000 frogs, and there are currently 10. The riddle is, and sort of the little minor math twister is, on which day is the pond going to be half full with its maximum capacity? And that is the day before it collapses, because of geometric progression. Or algebraic? Do I have– I think geometric, right? |
| S. RODNEY: 12:51 | No. Geometric, yes. |
| C.T. WEBB: 12:53 | Right. Yeah. So that means that the day before it hits 100,000, it’s going to be at 50. |
| S. RODNEY: 12:58 | It looks fine. |
| C.T. WEBB: 13:00 | Yeah, it’s going to be at 50. And then the next day, it’s not. |
| S. RODNEY: 13:04 | So you fall off a cliff. |
| C.T. WEBB: 13:08 | Yeah. And so I believe that. I do think that when the end of this particular iteration of things– I don’t mean ultimate end. I mean the end of this particular stage in human social evolution. We aren’t going to see it coming. It’s going to hit us like a bus when we were looking the other direction. And I don’t feel like the Malthusian sort of predictions of 50 years are what that’s going to look like. I think it’s going to be like Bear/Lehman and it’s just going to go. I don’t think there’s really an adequate way to prepare for that except to accept one’s own precariousness. |
| S. RODNEY: 14:08 | Okay. So quick question, Travis. Sorry. Before you get on, Steven. What is Bear/Lehman? |
| C.T. WEBB: 14:16 | Lehman/Stearns, the collapse of the– |
| S. RODNEY: 14:17 | Oh. Oh. Okay. Right. Lehman Brothers. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 14:22 | Lehman Brothers. |
| C.T. WEBB: 14:22 | Lehman Brothers! Thank you. Thank you, thank you. That’s what– |
| S. RODNEY: 14:23 | Yeah, you’re thinking of Bear Stearns/Lehman Brothers. |
| C.T. WEBB: 14:25 | Yes. Thank you. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 14:25 | Baz Luhrmann. I was like, “What are we talking about here?” |
| S. RODNEY: 14:29 | Right. Right, right, right. Okay. All right. Cool. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 14:30 | I was trying to find some way to put Baz Luhrmann in there. I was like, “That would be fun.” |
| S. RODNEY: 14:35 | Yeah. Yeah. It would be cute. Yeah. Steven? |
| C.T. WEBB: 14:39 | And you just did it. You succeeded. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 14:42 | There you go. So I’ll start off with an anecdote myself, because there is– I think it’s the koala bear? Yeah. They’re now functionally extinct, because of the deforestation in Australia. The Australian Koala Foundation just kind of put this article out I think a couple days ago. Actually, no, it was in May. It was in May of 2019. And I thought about it because I realized I hadn’t done any research or done a lot of thinking about this particular podcast, and it mirrors how I feel about climate change in general. I’ll pay attention to it, get frustrated, get excited, get terrified, and then go pay it no mind and go to something else. And the pay it no mind for me is kind of a little bit of what you’re talking about, Travis, but it’s my lens pulling back at the planet. And so I was watching something this morning which made a lot of sense to me. It was almost perfect for me. So they’re talking about the different ways in which Jupiter and Mercury are now kind of out of sync and that a little each year, Mercury will either spin out of the universe and knock Earth off its axis and Earth and Venus will change orbits– these are all predictions, of course. And so they were talking about these scientists who ran all these numbers through these supercomputers, and they said, “This is likely to happen.” And I was like, “I just don’t feel like being bothered with this. This is so annoying.” But then the next scene– I don’t know if you’ve heard of this “synchronization of metronomes,” this idea. What it is, if you put five to ten metronomes on a plane – a glass plane or any kind of plane – that moves, you can start the metronomes at different times, but if it swings back and forth, then the metronomes will all come in sync with one another. The energy from one will affect the other. Sort of the way they talk about the universe and gravitational pulls and whatnot. But if you hold that plane that they’re on, then they go out of sync again. So then I started thinking about harmony and how it relates to climate change and how we’re not really living harmonious lives with climate change. And the stronger part of me goes, “We’re fucked, because people are greedy.” And it’s not that just people are greedy. I think people have a hard time imagining it from a kind of way of living. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 17:17 | Your anecdote about people and the plastic bags, I know people who have money or people who don’t have money– I’ve witnessed and talked to people who get upset about the idea that they can’t have what they want. “Why can’t I have a bag? This isn’t going to change anything. It doesn’t mean anything.” They’re not thinking butterfly wings in Brazil, tidal wave in Hawaii. That kind of thing. They’re thinking of, “Me. This is mine.” And so I think climate change, when I listen to republicans going about, “There’s no credible studies,” and blah, blah, blah, I go, “But that is a pervasive way of thinking among a lot of people of different classes, different races around, ‘I’m living my life, and so why do I have to worry about this? Let the scientist take care of it.'” It’s always somebody else’s issue. The last anecdote I’ll have with climate change and garbage and all that, I remember when I first moved to Harlem, I’m walking down 125th. And at that time, 125th had started its revitalization, with chain stores and whatnot. And I’m walking, and I happen to see a little boy throw a piece of paper up in the air. And I don’t know what made me look at it, but I watched it, and I just watched it hit the ground [laughter]. And I’ve got this thing about litter where I get really angry and frustrated and could turn into one of those crazy people, “You should pick that up!” I could turn into that guy. I could totally turn into that guy. |
| S. RODNEY: 18:44 | Me too. Me too. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 18:44 | But I remember thinking, “Oh. People just throw things away,” and I’ve seen people eat food and the wrappers would just fall to the ground, they talking on their phone or eating. And I go, “I don’t know about this. I don’t know about these humans. I don’t know if they’re that interested in living that long.” |
| C.T. WEBB: 19:03 | Except they also pick the trash up. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 19:06 | No, absolutely. No, absolutely. All those scenarios. Not everybody, but yeah. |
| C.T. WEBB: 19:07 | And people are also selfless and drive to New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina, to deliver supplies, fill up their RVs with water and food and– |
| S. FULLWOOD: 19:23 | I have no numbers, Travis. I have no numbers, Travis. But I’m around people who are enlightened, and I just kind of cringe at some of the ways in which, including myself, thinking back on it, going, “But we could do this so much better.” And so I’m excited and I’m motivated by the people that you’re talking about, absolutely. They excite me. I love them. And I’m also, with dread– the other folks who don’t see these things as being real issues and that they think, “Well, we’re all going to die anyway.” It’s the “1999” song by Prince. “Yeah, nuclear war. So what? I’m going to go out”– |
| C.T. WEBB: 20:04 | Seph, I cut you off. Sorry. You were going to say something. |
| S. RODNEY: 20:05 | So I’m cut from the same cloth, Steven, as you are. I am really dismayed and frankly disgusted when I see that kind of behavior, and I see it around me a lot, because I live in New York City and I take public transportation quite often. And I happen to live in a particular part of the city that economically it’s a bit struggly [laughter]. The South Bronx. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 20:36 | That sounds cuter. |
| C.T. WEBB: 20:37 | “Strugg-ly.” |
| S. FULLWOOD: 20:38 | “Little struggly [laughter].” |
| S. RODNEY: 20:39 | Yeah. I think I read that on Very Smart Brothas or The Root one day. There was someone talking about somebody’s “struggly” teeth, and I thought that was perfect. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 20:50 | Oh, wow. |
| S. RODNEY: 20:51 | Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I have a real problem with that. Travis makes a good point in that depending on the direction in which you look, you will see aspects of humanity that are wonderful and inspiring. And you look another way and you will see the worst of us. There was something else that was said – I think Steven brought it up – that I wanted to run with. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 21:28 | Planetary wobble. Let’s see. Metronomes [laughter] [crosstalk]. |
| S. RODNEY: 21:33 | Yeah, I think it’s not being in sync. So one of the things you’re suggesting is that because we all can’t get on the same page with understanding the severity of what’s happening ecologically, we’re kind of going to keep ticking away at our own cadence, right? I mean, that’s what you’re suggesting? |
| S. FULLWOOD: 22:00 | It feels like a human project. It doesn’t feel like an individual project. That’s what I’m saying. |
| S. RODNEY: 22:05 | Right. Right. |
| C.T. WEBB: 22:08 | So the harmony thing is a human invention. I don’t mean it’s an invention as in we made up that things in the universe sometimes harmonize. I mean, clearly that does happen. There is obviously a structure and a kind of short-term stability in the universe. Planets hold together. Solar systems. There’s all kind of structures. But absolutely intertwined in that double helix is disunity, and disharmony, and destruction. And that is also as vital and intimate an aspect of creation and the universe that we experience. That’s not a bug. That’s a feature. And in that way, our rapaciousness, our need to want to have the bag – like everyone have a bag and everyone have this and everyone have that – also is an engine and motors and drives our innovation and our optimism to solve problems. |
| S. RODNEY: 23:34 | Yeah, you’re being– I’m sorry. I cut you out. I was rude. I apologize. |
| C.T. WEBB: 23:38 | No, no. Please. No, no, no. |
| S. RODNEY: 23:39 | But I was just so pissed off by what you were saying. |
| C.T. WEBB: 23:42 | Okay. Good, good, good, good. Good. |
| S. RODNEY: 23:45 | Like, “No, you’re being too sanguine about this, Travis.” I really think, like, “Yes,” and on paper, I would absolutely agree with you, but I’m the motherfucker right now who wants to go through the theater ringing the bell saying, “Get the hell out! The place is on fire!” Like seriously. “Get the women and kids!” Seriously. |
| C.T. WEBB: 24:07 | Okay. But seriously, pause on your indignation, because didn’t you just take a plane to Cleveland? |
| S. RODNEY: 24:16 | Yeah, but– |
| C.T. WEBB: 24:16 | Like aren’t we all intimately bound up and utilizing the very ambition I’m fingering? |
| S. RODNEY: 24:26 | Yes. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 24:27 | Yeah. |
| C.T. WEBB: 24:27 | I mean, your career is built out of critiquing the effluvium of that effort– |
| S. RODNEY: 24:37 | You’re absolutely right. |
| C.T. WEBB: 24:37 | –and I celebrate it. And I think that’s a wonderful thing, and I think that’s a glorious thing. And I don’t want to lose that thing, and I don’t feel guilty about it. There are things that I think that we should tackle and attack and do our best to ameliorate, because as we’re going to talk about on the next podcast, the people that are fucked in climate change are poor people. That’s who’s going to get fucked in climate change. That is what’s going to happen. And that, I think, is a serious problem that requires a serious effort to address it. |
| S. RODNEY: 25:16 | Agreed. Agreed. |
| C.T. WEBB: 25:17 | So anyway, so I’m sorry. I was just defending my– |
| S. RODNEY: 25:20 | No, no, no, no. It’s cool. It’s cool. |
| C.T. WEBB: 25:20 | I upset you. |
| S. RODNEY: 25:21 | No, we got into it. It’s good. No. So I have a question for both of you, because it just occurred to me, when I was listening to Steven, that there’s a film scene that occurs to me when I think of the words “climate change.” I want to ask you both, when you hear the term “climate change,” is there a particular image that immediately comes to mind? |
| S. FULLWOOD: 25:51 | Sweating polar bears. |
| S. RODNEY: 25:55 | Wait. Wait. What polar bears? |
| S. FULLWOOD: 25:56 | Sweating. |
| S. RODNEY: 25:57 | Oh. Oh. Okay. All right. |
| C.T. WEBB: 26:01 | That’s great. That’s great. Two come to mind. One is not sweating polar bears but that image that came out not that long ago of the polar bear in the middle of the ocean, just without an iceberg in sight. That and then– |
| S. RODNEY: 26:19 | The really skinny one, is that right? |
| S. FULLWOOD: 26:21 | Yeah. It was the skinny one. |
| C.T. WEBB: 26:21 | Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. |
| S. RODNEY: 26:23 | Emaciated, yeah. |
| C.T. WEBB: 26:23 | And then extreme weather, so images of houses being blown over in hurricanes, things like that. |
| S. RODNEY: 26:32 | Okay. For me, the scene that always almost immediately comes to mind is the opening scene from the film by Terry Gilliam starring Bruce Willis called– |
| C.T. WEBB: 26:47 | Oh. “12 Monkeys.” |
| S. RODNEY: 26:49 | “12 Monkeys.” That scene, where he wakes up in the barracks, and the plastic covered, and in order to go out into the world, he has to basically put on a hazmat suit. That scene is what comes to mind when I think of climate change. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 27:05 | So what Travis said earlier about the fretting over this ending thing, it feels like a larger metaphor, obviously, for just life. Like you’re not going to be here for that long, and you want everything to be right for everybody else, no matter what your politics are. In some ways, you think that we could do better. And that’s what drives me. I think that we could do better. But again, an asteroid could come and hit the Earth. Boom. I could drop dead tomorrow. Boom. But those things don’t distract me or occupy my consciousness when I think, “We could just have cleaner neighborhoods. We could use less garbage. We could do more recycling. We could find ways to educate people, and ourselves, on best practices but be flexible enough to know that that might change.” And so earlier when Travis was talking about the idea of harmony as a human invention, I agree with you. But it is a good invention unless you are in a cult [laughter]. |
| C.T. WEBB: 28:07 | I totally agree with you. No, no. Same wavelength. Same page. Same chapter. Same [inaudible] totally agree. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 28:11 | I know. I was going to call you a cult leader earlier. I was like, “It’s the Wild, Wild West.” “Wild, Wild Country.” Because I think in some ways, the best of cults – if one could say that – that they’re trying to lean toward something but just end up getting it really messed up because then everybody’s got to wear their outfit. No one’s reading the manual on how to act. That kind of thing. I’m that guy. I’m like, “I don’t want to wear this.” “Get him!” You know, so. |
| S. RODNEY: 28:40 | Right. Right. Right. |
| C.T. WEBB: 28:42 | Yeah. Sorry. I think we’re coming up on time, but two things. Yes, harmony is a wonderful invention, and I want to continue to improve and expand that harmony. Well, I’ll just leave it at one. Yeah, I’m completely with you on that. Yeah, absolutely. Do you guys–? |
| S. RODNEY: 29:00 | So– |
| C.T. WEBB: 29:01 | Seph, please, you want to [inaudible]–? |
| S. RODNEY: 29:02 | Yeah, I just want to suggest a possible agenda for the next couple of talks, at least. One thing that occurred to me– you said it earlier, Travis, was that where the rubber really is going to hit the road with climate change’s effect on human populations is the poor. So I think one of the things that we could talk about is – from a research point of view, from a scientific point of view – what does that look? What’s the worst that’s going to happen? I mean, we’ve seen some of things already. New Orleans is disappearing, and it’s likely not going to be around in the next 10, 20 years. So maybe we can talk about what the poorest on the planet– |
| C.T. WEBB: 29:54 | But New York will be. There’s enough money in New York that New York is going to be fine. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 29:59 | We’re an island, too. We keep forgetting that. We’re an island. |
| S. RODNEY: 30:03 | No, but we actually might lose the southern tip. But no, we should talk about it. We should talk about poverty. |
| C.T. WEBB: 30:06 | Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Great. So thanks very much for the conversation– |
| S. RODNEY: 30:10 | And one more suggestion, too, maybe following up on that. And it’s something that Steven said jogged this for me. What does better look like? If we are going to combat climate change, what does better look like? |
| C.T. WEBB: 30:27 | Great. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 30:27 | That’s great. |
| C.T. WEBB: 30:29 | Yeah. All right. Well, we’ll add that to the list. So, Steven and Seph, thanks very much for the conversation– |
| S. RODNEY: 30:34 | Indeed. |
| C.T. WEBB: 30:34 | And I’ll speak to you guys next week. Thank you. |
| S. FULLWOOD: 30:36 | Okay. Thank you. |
References
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